Posted on Jan 10th, 2008
by 
Albert
This from Barbara Marx Hubbard who for decades is pioneering evolutionary thinking, perspectives and action. See also her interview from 2000:
Barbara Marx Hubbard Meets Adi Da about what it can mean to feel the presence of a powerful teacher.
I was delighted to see her beeing in vivid contact with Michael Dowd too. The great Conversation of the Century, (not only the national one Wilber is speaking about) is a Master topic for this year. And its high time to leverage this especially this year in unseen new alliances and power-play of emergent forces which give flesh, blood and mind blowing, mind-expanding and heart-warming fresh, electric air far beyond personal discussions about candidates....
Thanks Barbara!
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 | Dear Friends,
I am delighted to be sending you this first installment of THE CONVERSATION OF THE CENTURY. These innovators that I will be introducing you to, collectively hold the "evolutionary code" of the conscious evolution of humanity. Many of you also hold the code but we just haven't been fully connected yet. This is the purpose of The Conversation of The Century. |
| The first conversation is with my dear friend and colleague, Michael Dowd, who is one of the greatest communicators of the evolutionary potential of Life. To receive an instant audio excerpt of a conversation I recently had with Michael on what he refers to as the "Four Pillars of Evolutionary Integrity. |  CLICK HERE |
 CLICK HERE | I highly recommend Michael's new book, Thank God for Evolution: How the Marriage of Science and Religion Will Transform Your Life and Our World. No less than five Nobel prize-winners have written glowing reviews for Michael's unique take on evolution. But throw into the mix that Reverend Michael Dowd was once a conservative evangelical who protested the teaching of evolution and things get quite interesting! This is vital reading for all of us. For more info on Michael and his book go to http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=OTEA0&m=1q4BS8LX4Uqghb&b=e1gXzYUhBeklVFpzs2g97g. |
| I am also extremely pleased to be able to offer you, for the first time, the opportunity to view OUR STORY, the first movie in my Humanity Ascending Series, streamed full screen online for just $4.95. This is a great way for you to introduce your friends to the movie for such a reasonable price. And I would be grateful if you would forward this email to whomever you think would benefit from this movie's hopeful message. To watch OUR STORY online please go to http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=OTEA0&m=1q4BS8LX4Uqghb&b=.H5LpaLhIqHS3UygZx3WnQ. | 
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barbara marx hubbard
October 2008 
Access: Public
Sigh, deeply, when I read this: ”I feel very close to Adi Da, both personally and in my work, and I want to serve His Transmission by including His Message in a radio program I'm starting on Wisdom Radio called “Live From the Peace Room”. It will begin in July and it reaches, via internet, all over the world. I said to various devotees I've met that as that program comes on the air I want to serve this Energy of Adi Da in a way that would be useful for His world-Blessing. I don't know yet what form He would like that to take, but I want to serve as a vehicle for His Blessing to flow to all the benignly world-transforming projects that will be linked in the Peace Room.”
You could change the name to, for instance Andrew Cohen, and you get the same kitsch as kitsch can of people who would probably be abhorred if someone where to say this about the centuries old haven of Divinity that the Catholic Church and its Pope is, for instance.
It's always amazing to me how intelligent people can fall on their knees in awe for this kind of stuff (o well, I did the same; so it's not that amazing ;).
The need to give in to Big Daddy is immense… nevertheless this is the same kind of stuff atrocities are made of.
”The Führers eyes rested on me and I felt how graciously He carries the heavy load of the future of humanity on his shoulders…” (Rudolf Hess)
Big Daddy approaches have nothing to do with authentic spirituality. However there is this principle of Darshan and Satsang. In evolutionary terms theree is a need for complete re-definition of these ancient core-practices-
You seem to have a kind of allergy against these forms. Undersandable. Anyone who has eVER practiced in this complex context-like me- knows the potential. yes, it has to be integrated. But this is necessary everywhere in realms of absolute and relative. From Eckart Tolle, Genpo Roshi, Andrew Cohen to hundreds of others approaches to teach, the core practice remains the same.
And the phenomenology of stages in meditation needs more research. Right now I see no serious adavances in cross-cultural global scale. in the last 10-20 years.
Falling to the knees has nothing whatever to do with cultic surrender. The last is practiced by slavish followers. Permanent rebellion against forms of divine surrender isnt the key too..I would call it adolescent…
You yourself supported and participated in German translation of “Knee of Listening.” :):)
“The leading edge of leading edge” as it is discussed in WIE by Wilber and Cohen demands specific sets of practive and level of discriminative intelligence. For this important issue-though highly controversial even between colleagues and allies-years and decades of cross-verification and exploration are needed. However it has to be started right now. In qualified Practice, documentation, conversation and research.
THIS exactly wasnt given with the Nazis. And isnt given with thousands of cultic forms today wordwide. Even in business cultism is widespread. As in MUsic, in philophy, in painting..in arts…..in dozens of areas.
Be relaxed….always the essence of authentic realzations will manifest erlier or later…
you're right, of course, dear Albert. It might be called an allergy… so I better not read the accounts of Hubbard of her devotion for Bid Daddy Adi Da, whose teaching is extremely misunderstandable, even by himself - we just have to look at KW's fall-out with the guy.
I would say that Adi Da, KW and AC all suffer from what I'd call “Divine Narcisissm” which is a kind of disease that is than caught by their followers at large. An analysis along those lines hasen't been properly done but could be very fruitful. The way it is - if you read Hubbards account I really cannot see any telltale difference from cultism, a cultism that is matter of fact encouraged by Adi Da.
I might be too much of a Bodhisattva, focussed on alleviating some of the suffering of the many, and I see how much unnecessary (in my view) suffering is being caused by these ancient approaches to spirituality (basically a feudalistic structure); that makes me take out my sword and do some slashing of nonsensical and cultish tendencies… or it might, in fact, just be my allergy to these forms of claims…
And I'm really not concerned about new, essential or authentic realisations on my part. I had and have my fair share of divine extasies, and insights beyond to not get hooked on any of that (I hope).
Adoration (a lá Hubbard) is not even the beginning of falsification or verification. (And those are just connected to truth-claims) I have a passion for practical truths that are emancipative also - and maybe most of all - in social and cultural context; which means there is no way back to these feudalistic instances of worship as with AC and much more with Adi Da.
I do not see any feudalism..please give concrete examples which are verified by your own experience. Who exactly, except KW and AC, is practicing feudalism??
Who spoke about Adoration? I know knowbody.
As there is this ongoing discussion - Wilber and Cohen about leading edge of leading edge and Don Beck questioning the whole thing, and other implicitly use an unispected language of first, second and thrid tier - some explorations might be useful.
Big daddy nowadays are basically in business, science, poltics and elsewhere. And then there is deep difference in womens and me approach to spirituality.
Divine narcissism..inst sharply defined. As in medical differentialdiagnosis:):) we ned more accuratesse, precision and verifcation. Was Jesus an intolerant narciss? And Buddha a megalomanic?
Is Dalai Lama a simple monk who is sometimes inflating with big Kala Chakra ceremonies?
Is Universe Project of EnlightenNext self aggrandizing bulshiting?
Can we discuss the profiles of WIE and Connections in its spiritual essence?
Is the whole AQAL Aproach only a maybe good story? With Big Ken as Story Teller?
Etc. Etc.
Precision is needed—otherwise my diagnosis would be: Recidive pluralitis and symptoms of relativism …with reductionistic interpretation of spiritual experiences as states exclusively…:):):)
Adoration is the feeling that comes through very much, adulation also, in Hubbards account that you mentioned.
“Feudal society is a sometimes-debated term used to describe the social order in the Western Europe, Central Europe, and sometimes Japan and other regions in the Middle Ages, characterized by the legal subjection of a large part of the peasantry to a hereditarylandholding elite exercising administrative and judicial power on the basis of reciprocal private undertakings.”
Who is managing the finances in these movements? (Remember that financial and monetary authority turns a parliament from a talking club into an entity that is taken serious.)
Is there a difference between the spiritual 'ruler' and those that manage the more material affairs - is the power over church and state in the same hands?
The answer to these questions is a pretty good indication of what I meant by calling these movements feudalistic.
Yes, there might be difficulties caused by using different kinds of language - yet the whole distinction between 1st and 2nd tier (3rd tier only existis in uninspected imaginations of some; there is hardly any real investigation beyond yellow, maybe some turquoise - I don't know.) is feeble, and doesn't mean much to me or the non-Beck direction of Spiral Dynamics.
Jesus, as he is portraiyed in the generally accepted Gospels, was intolerant when it came to cleaning up the Temple in Jerusalem, and tolerant when we look at his relationship with Mary Magdalene. The religion based on his teachings and life doesn't have a very long track record of tolerance.
Buddha wasn't very nice to women - that we know. And from my long stay in Sri Lanka I know that the buddhist monks there are not very tolerant to old ladies in busses ;-)
Tibetan Buddhism has had many wars and skirmishes between the different sects, and the Dalai Lama - bless his heart - has said very clearly he wants to divide church from state and is going for democracy (he has been critical at times about cultish practises in buddhism, and the abuse of women by tibetan tantric masters.)
I don't know about the Univers Project other than that it does exist. I also know that the initiation phase of a project shows up in how things move on further down the line. And you know my basic stance towards AC.
I think there is no essence that doesn't show up in 'meat-space'… the rest is beautiful images and ghosts; and I do appreciate ghosts. I did have contact with appearances that had all the classical features of angels - so don't think I do not appreciate these 'dimensions'. Yet as an incarnated being that cannot know anything really of being discarnate (as my flesh 'colors' all perception and thought and experience) I do have a strong critique of any teaching or theory that supposes to know anything of an essence that is 'disconnected' from meat-space.
So no, I cannot discuss spiritual essence as such, only in its connection to experience in the human domains which are mainly social and cultural.
And yes, AQal is a good, even very good story, and Big Ken a story teller; as we all are. Some stories are more liberating on an individual level (giving us great state-experiences), and put themselves up as being liberating on a social and cultural level (which most spiritual ones aren't!), and some stories are liberating on a social, cultural and individual level - those are the stories I find worth telling.
So was that precise enough?
Thanks very much. It leaves space for further explorations.
One thing….where did I reference to Hubbard? I have stated here at Zaadz some crucial points regarding Dianetics and Scientology. Knowing they have their headqaurters in L.A:. And some members beeing here at Zaadz. No problem for me. My basic intention is to make clear what essence of Scientology is and there are problematic cases in dealing with members and ex-members.
Barbara Marx Hubbard (is she a relationship of the Scientology one :-)
Do you say BMH is member of Scientology??? I do not know…
No. My answer was to your question as to why Hubbard… (she's full of adoration for Daddy Da)
Perhaos she would say devotion…as in Bhakti Yoga…I see BMH as strong..clear and capable woman……ask herself if its about adoration…do not think so….who was your own teacher?
John Lilly (Simulations of God)
Timothy Leary
Franlin Merell-Wolff
Michael Barnett
4 Pioneers of late 20th century conceptualization and perception. So AQAL, and Wilber 5-plus new P2P Collaboration beyond Bauwens shortcuts wil surely be welcomed:):)by you…or?
One thing to add for me: Its never about any experiences, may they be high or low…bad or good for me. One can have them until the cows come home…nothing changes…Its about the relationship to thinking, feeling and experience. And the fundamental successive sequence of conversions as Sri Aurobindo already described…beginning with the psychic one…Thats strongly corresponding with Andrew Cohens transition to Authentic Self over 51percent.
Andrew is stressing the intersubjective context of this shifts.. Thats not really new for me. it was always- at least latently -implied for the last 30 years for me. We have now models and maps, thanks to SDI, AQAL and others, which can visualize the ways, perspectives and horizones…tools and technologies…communities and constellations, Values based connections….etc….
And all this in the areas of cities, corporate worldpolitical universe, business and institutions of healthcare, police work, military action, education and science too. Thats new as the approaches in the real world are most relevant.
And therefore….for the first time in history a real global conversation for the 21st century can even begin. The connecting of the Dots in this context may be comparable to the growth of brain in first 1 or two years of a new-born child. When -pre birth- embryogenesis is finished . .no human eye (without knowledge) can predict the three dimensional structure and functional flow of the entity called Central nervous System. Its called a meshwork in bio.science.
And thus meshworking..as Spiral Dynamics is speaking -is the really advanced form of communication at the edge. Gaiasspace is certainly is groundbreaking software. The Integral Operating System -as developed by Wilber- and the core intelligence , the motherboard as Don Beck says, are governing what any software can perform.
What never happened. up to now, was a transcontinental great conversation. Beyond the small worlds of Core Groups of specialists, experts, functional leaders. A Global public unified integral communication. Thats what I see for next 5-10 years. And indeed, completely new forms of leadership, innovation and Co-Creation are needed. New functions at the edge. And in accordance to the great tectonic plates on every continent.
Soon GAIAM will re-label the Zaadz…branding lets see how this will serve this conversation even more..
Wilbur-5 (hmmm, I like the version numbering of people - so I'm in Mushin 2.0 which is the same as Jürgen 4) I have read; I find his arguments becoming increasingly contradictory internally, most of all his insistence of having some pre-formed absolute when at the same time he starts to understand what post-modern thinking requires… but that's another discussion altogether.
I'm a fan of Michel Bauwens (we've had quite some contact; he's a fan of my 'pluralistic spirituality' and John Heron's 'participatory spirituality') and his p2p foundation, but also he is not my teacher in the sense that the other 4 were.
As you know I now suggest “mutual apprenticeship” as the alternative to the one-way-guru-communication, even proposing that this will be the way that 'leading edge spirituality' (no matter how much leading edge you heap onto leading edge) in the 21st century develops further.
Interesting: Your view on experiences. I would propose that experiences are the 'snapshots' we take of the interrelatedness of all happening, relating them mainly to oneself, and saying that one is having them. So an experience really is also a 'language happening'.
For any “conversion” (in the Aurobindo sense) or “level change” (in the KW sense) to be a real one it needs to pan out in, well, experience in meat-space to be of interest to me. (I've taken enough LSD in my young years, and done enough meditation etc. in my later years to see the enormous difficulties arising once we start to mix 'spiritual happenings' with happenings in 'meat-space'…:)
The stress AC puts on intersubjective is interesting; when I look at the videos of some of his publich happenings I do see him hijacking what is being said by people; he is not entering those spaces in a respectful mode (how could he, he still sees himself as being beyond all this, and in his behaviour is an old style guru). So I think that theoretically here and there he hits the mark but practically he causes more trouble than that he's a help in pioneering these we-full dimensions. (In ”A Collective Emergence - a deep view into Andrew Cohens Teachings” I've shown why and how.)
I may be a bit old fashioned in insisting on “walking the talk” - and I do not see much, if anything, in the we-full 'quadrant' of AC's, KW's or Daddy Da's action and behavior in the world that would show true pioneering efforts along those lines. They are “yellow”, agentive, self-ful guys… which really is fine with me. I only point out with passionate critique that they don't have a clue when it comes to experiences (or whatever you want to call it) and research into the we-full dimensions of being alive on this planet.
;);) Its too much for some people alone..so thousands of men and women are needed indeed.
but why do you call them -AD, KW - yellow agentic? Its clear that AC canot have empathic interaction with his audience. Suggest even to interact directly with the students. The whole field needs exploration.
One thing- for me.is for sure: Its not about peak experiences. LOL you can ahve them with LSD or without…you can Have Kundalini and other disney like experiences until the cows come home. No real transformation will happen until..
There is the need of lots of documented and written research next decades. until then I realize that they are pioneering practice at leading edge of leading edge. The Value of this project remains to be tested by thousands of people-and hot, juicy controversies are to be expected. Will be great. See recent disput between Rupertr Sheldrake and Dawkins regarding telepathy…:):)reported by Deepak Chopra at Huffingtonpost.com….
It has always been so. On the edge of new discoveries people had nervous breakdowns, committed suicicde and went crazy in history. Its our duty to protect the first dicoveries as much as possible. They demand the toughest engagement thinkable.
Now if, as you affirm, AC cannot have emphatic interaction with his audience (and I haven't had the pleasure to see KW interacting with his audience in any manner but the teaching-down stance), and if - as AC's teaching goes - the next steps in evolution are intersubjective, what is going on here?
It reminds me of political parties trying to 'occupy a topic' so that people, when they think of it, believe these political parties have some sort of knowledge or even wisdom about it. But it has nothing to do with furthering the topic (exploring, researching, experimenting) - it is plain power politics.
So maybe this instinctive reaction - seeing this kind of spiritual powergame going on - is what is connected with my 'allergic reaction' when it comes to AC, KW and Daddy Da being positioned somehow as avant garde, or leading edge of leading edge? Hmmm.
I call that yellow agentic, because there is no real step taken in the lower left quatrant (AQAL-system of thinking), except in words and theory only. And, again following the SD-theory, if it holds true that the level's emphasis is switching back and forth between agentic and communal, then that's how I arrive at that conclusion (there is something to say for the poss. that they don't even advance beyond the orange if one takes their damnation of 'mean green meme' serious; which I don't, as you know).
Transformation, if it is to mean anything in the context these guys pan out, has to encompass all four quadrants, isn't it? If, as seems very clear, they cannot really grok the we-fullness of the LL quadrant, than aren't we talking about a theoretical construct that isn't filled with real experiment, experience and the heat of reality's breath?
All of this doesn't speak for “they are pioneering practice at leading edge of leading edge”, because they are not. They might, just might, be studying what real people pioneer in the real life and experiement with others, but assuredly what is not happening is practise - it is theorizing at best.
So it seems like we've embarked just a little bit into the coming controversies that will surface as we explore these fields further… :) And I'm happy with you as my sparring partner :):)
lets continue some sparring…all over the world at the edge: There are core groups….McKinsey..and BCG in Consulting..I spoke with leading KcKInsey and BCG men and women…they do not make visible….what inside is going on..just not possible as real progress needs kind of certain commitements.its in science…in politcs…. etc etc…
Just read Art Kleiners (MIT) classic about Core Groups..so hell…yes there will be some competition and tournament between different groups..we know how H. Bloom differentiated the 5 assets of evolution.
I must say..I am enjoying differences, tension and friction as much as good consensus. Following Andrew Cohens statements about tension and friction here.
And at least two years are over now hwere I left referring to KW, AC…and other for referring specifically on. I am on my own road…just evolutionary alliances call simply for resonances….
Great to have this sparring with you! Thats what I like…Maybe we two could provide A collaborative (European) dialogue later….similar as KW and AC:) lol.)
And in that dialogue no-guru and no-pundit (eben though I feel your field of expertise is wide…)
Yes, I think real progress needs some protection againsheh' winds of critcism; and also we want to grow “Mushin's beard” before we apply Occam's razor, don't we? :)
So some wild growth in the beginning is quite okay. And then, if one puts oneself up as a spiritual super-hero (enlightenment; even beyond ordinary and historic enlightenment, etc.), let the “when you meet a Buddha on the road, kill him” begin :)
Today I learn't an affirmation - well, it somehow fell into my mind and I made it mine: “May I use todays' challenges well!”
And the tournament - hopefully embedded in a field of collaboration - for the 'better' solutions, I'm a great fan of that even though it is not comfortable…
Great..May be we call the cycle ” Cheerful, ruthless, free style conversations at the leading edge of leading edge in early 21st centruy”….):)we only need to find an editor…
Embedded in field of collaboration: Yes..I am referring here to Howard Blooms 5 system drives: Conformity Enforcers, Diverstiy Generators, Ressource Shifters, Inner Judges, Intergroup Tournament……
If we continue this thread until end of year with one comment from you and one from me we will create the longest Zaadz/gAIAm Thread in World HIstory:):) applying for Guiness Book of records:):)
We might ask Helen and/or Sandra to help and pipe in…
I know about the 5 system drivers - yet: you have a tip where he goes into that matter? googling it didn't turn up anything (at first glance).
Hmmm… and we might create the thread along a first posting of “Cheerful, ruthless, free style conversations at the leading edge of leading edge in early 21st century”?